.png)
Confessions of a Recruiter
Confessions of a Recruiter is a podcast built for recruiters who want more than surface-level stories.
We’ve stepped into a new era with a sharper look and a stronger voice. This rebrand isn’t just about a new logo. It reflects our commitment to real conversations, genuine insight, and a brand that matches the impact we’re making in the recruitment industry.
If you're keen to be part of the journey, email us at info@confessionspod.com
Confessions of a Recruiter
Mastering BD: Steve Tolen’s Five Before the Call Framework | COAR S1-EP4
From launching businesses from scratch to guiding recruitment leaders toward sustainable growth, Steve Tolen has spent more than 20 years honing his approach to business development. In this episode, he opens up about the strategies, mindset, and hard-won lessons that have shaped his career in one of the most competitive industries in Australia.
Steve breaks down his Five Before the Call methodology, a modern BD framework built on five essentials: personal branding, LinkedIn mastery, smart AI integration, compelling video content, and genuine in-person networking. It’s a system designed to create multiple, high-value touchpoints before a single call is made, making conversations warmer, deeper, and far more productive.
But this isn’t just about tactics. Steve shares why patience, authenticity, and playing the long game will always outperform a transactional approach. He walks us through his five-step sales process: attract attention, increase engagement, build rapport and trust, co-create opportunity, and only then close, explaining why skipping the early steps is the fastest way to fail.
We also explore how to own your niche, handle objections, strengthen long-term client relationships, and communicate value across all levels of seniority. Steve’s take on praising competitors instead of tearing them down is a masterclass in relationship-first business.
Whether you’re building your recruitment career or refining your BD strategy, this episode offers a clear blueprint for standing out, winning trust, and building a business that lasts.
· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io
Welcome to another episode of Confessions of a Recruiter. Today's guest is the exceptional Steve Tolan, a seasoned sales leader with over 20 years experience in sales leadership, with a proven track record of establishing businesses from scratch and a reputation as an avid relationship builder.
Speaker 2:My name is S Tolan Stolen and co is the easiest thing. It's kind of what we're done. It's stuck and many markets and people have went. Don't ever change that. In this episodeve opens up about his mindset that has fueled his success to master lead generation, prospecting and discovery calls your clients your potential candidates. Everyone's got the same access to technology that you have. You know, the one thing that you own is yourself. Everyone else has kind of taken we unpack his five before the call methodology.
Speaker 1:explore how to truly own your niche and use AI without losing the human touch. This episode is packed with actionable strategies, memorable stories and a healthy dose of straight talking wisdom from one of the industry's best. Welcome back to another episode of Confessions of a Recruiter, season one all about business development, lead generation, discovery, calls, value propositions, pitches, anything to do with BD, and we're joined by Steve Tolan, Good morning.
Speaker 2:Thank you for the opportunity Delighted to be here.
Speaker 1:The man, the myth, the legend. Thank you for joining us, Steve, Thank you, Thank you. Now I'm sure everyone knows who you are, but for those who don't, do you want to give us a five-minute, couple-minute background on what you've been up to? You've got a really interesting experience and it'd be nice to get a bit of context before we jump into the sales aspect.
Speaker 2:So, firstly, thanks for having me. It means a lot. I really enjoy these and am delighted, be you know, to have the invitation. So I've been in sales in recruitment for 20 plus years. Um, you know my background and everyone I think it's quite quite knows this, but I used to sell fish for 10 years family business before I got into recruitment. We just talked a little bit earlier. That's how I ended up in the southwest working for the high streets agencies and, uh, but, kind of bring up to speed, I worked for three businesses in the uk, very quickly went from consultant to national sales with manpower, which was a global business, which is fantastic, and my wife, and then in 2009 we ended up in australia with four suitcases and she was five months pregnant.
Speaker 2:Friday, 30th of march 2009. What could go wrong came in day one. They closed the office. That was brisbane. That was my entrance into brisbane. I've never been to australia five days later in sydney with the suitcases and the pregnant fiance. And yeah, that was my entry into Brisbane. And never been to Australia Five days later in Sydney with the suitcases and the pregnant fiancé. And, yeah, that was my entry point.
Speaker 2:And I think, if you can kind of come through that, mate. It really set me up. Probably tells you a lot about myself Tenacious. I always see the optimistic opportunity in everything, believe a view. I always take calculated risks and, you know, enjoyed that.
Speaker 2:I went through Randstad eight years, progressed through the business, went that I went from. Went through ranstad eight years, progressed to the business, went through allegiance, set up the bd kind of division there for msp division also always been in kind of strategic sales um and just enjoyed the kind of the bd. So never really been per se a recruiter and I'm just known for well, the solution, the inside kind of selling. I've really enjoyed that um. Obviously moved into doing the private equity with recruitment entrepreneur and then kind of built a business really around my personality and my experience, mate. So kind of what you see is what you get.
Speaker 2:My name is S Tolan Stolen and Co is the easiest thing to kind of come up with and it's stuck and many marketing people have went. Don't ever change that. So, mate, yeah, everything to do with sales people. You know the last kind of 12 months people used to use it as a bit of a stick to beat me with. You haven't been in a branch for a long time. So I went in and did some work with Pinpoint, ran an IT business. While some things have changed, what hasn't changed is you only get out what you put in right.
Speaker 3:You know, still matching great clients, great candidates, but definitely the market dynamics, and I do believe you have to work a lot harder to kind of fight for your airtime and your opportunity. So that kind of brings me to to where I am today. Love that. So we're gonna jump straight into the topics of the podcast. So lead generation and prospecting yep, um, what's been like the most effective strategy that you've consistently used or seen to generate high quality leads across your experience?
Speaker 2:doing the qualification is key.
Speaker 2:So you know, in terms of I see people going quite generic and not owning their niche, not being a specialist.
Speaker 2:So really owning that if you work in it, you know what's the kind of the discipline and then nurturing the kind of the, the candidates that you can kind of place alongside you know the potential kind of organizations that they'd want to work. So I think, really kind of fundamentals. You know, today I think everyone's looking for kind of shortcuts and I do think, certainly since COVID, business development skills and just general human connection really kind of waned. So I think people have lost that ability to do the grunt work, the outbound work, and actually say, okay, you know, like anything in sales, you have to have something to take to market and someone that wants to kind of buy, so being known as that expert in whatever niche it is whether it's IT you know I'm the guy for project managers or what have you yeah, and connecting with those people that you think would require those kinds of services. So I don't think there's anything too kind of futuristic there or whatever. It's just really doing the kind of fundamentals.
Speaker 3:Deep diving into a niche. Deep diving, yeah, yeah, exactly into a nation. Yeah, exactly. How has your approach changed? Or over the years, because obviously you've been in recruitment a long time, have you seen?
Speaker 2:an evolution of your own skills. Yeah, uh, I mean on a softer skill kind of level. Um, I think you've learned to get more comfortable in your own skin and as you have been in it 20 years, and particularly in australia, getting on for 16 years, I don't want this to sound cheesy, but you become more well known and it opens doors and you have you put yourself out there and that kind of encourages, it makes opening doors easier. So I think and again I mentioned this point before I think you also have a responsibility, particularly develop a personal brand to maintain, maintain high standards, and that's for the industry. So, you know, recently, even though the last kind of six months, I say I'm feel very blessed and grateful.
Speaker 2:I've been invited on a lot of podcasts. Either there's not many people that they're around or they like people like what I got to say. But you know, I was kind of being authentic and I enjoy recruitment and the industry's giving me a hell of a lot mate. So I I guess my probably enjoy being a bit of a focal point for the industry. Does that kind of make sense? Yeah, it does.
Speaker 3:It does. Have you got any tips for someone coming in early in their career? You talked about evolving your brand and building your name Any tips that you'd give them to get to maybe where you've got to?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, first and foremost, it's a necessity. These days, your clients, your potential candidates, everyone's got the same access to technology that you have. You know, the one thing that you own is you is is you be yourself? Everyone else is kind of taken right and I think so many people, uh, have that tall poppy syndrome. They're frightened of putting themselves out there, because what if one person doesn't like it? To be honest, when you get that negative criticism, you know you've nailed it, mate, okay, right, because if you just want to be seen and your mates who are giving you the high fives and stuff, you're not having an impact. So be seen, be knowledgeable and have a point of view. This is where. So I think, just go for it. I mean, I shared this story so many times January 24, you know, I'm at home, I'm consulting no one pays you in January, obviously.
Speaker 2:And I was sat at home, three kids watching the television, no money coming in. What can I do? And a mate of mine, a guy called Mario Beckish, who's ex-Special Forces military, said to me Stephen, you can build your brand. I was like what can I do? How long have you been in recruitment? 20 videos for 20 years in recruitment 20 days of videos, 100,000 people watched the videos January last year. People must have been bored, man, but I was. I was bored after doing the first two or three right, and he said to me you will get bored, keep going, keep going. And I did. And I became known then as the kind of the video guy, where that's rightly wrong. Just a middle-aged bloke just having to go and the amount of people that said to me love it, keep going, do this. And there was a couple who said I hate that. And I put, I pulled one, one guy on and I said what do you mean? He said what I mean is I couldn't do it, yeah so just talked about that tall poppy syndrome.
Speaker 3:Right, got to get yourself out there. You do um, but stolen and co you got. Is it your own sales methodology? Is that? Is that what you? Kind of built. So what does the five before call framework kind of look like in practice?
Speaker 2:if you said so. When I came to australia, 09 bbt, 60 calls a day we had to make, right, and I just look back and think if someone made 10 a week now, you'd probably be quite happy with that right. That's a decent, a decent result. Return on kind of efforts. Um, you have to do so much more work now before the call, right, like as in before, actually. So everyone says the cold call is dead, it's been demonized rubbish. I've never built a relationship without picking up a phone, right. If you can show me any tech, that's kind of done, that I'll. I'll be amazed. What I find today is I make less calls than I did 15, 20 years ago. But the most common bit of feedback I get is I know you, right, I've seen you, I've seen your videos, I've seen a podcast, I've seen this.
Speaker 2:So the fight before the call is basically number one you have to have a personal brand, right. So people know the three Ws who, what, why, who I am, what's your service and why would you be of interest to me? Right? Really simple stuff. Number two LinkedIn is key, right? It's changed so much, even in the last kind of six to 12 months, so you have to be able to master this, it's this. It's not good enough just sharing a company page posting a job. People want to get to know who are you. Do our values align? Right, you know, are you talking about things? So I think I'd want a relationship with you. So these are the things that you nearly really need to kind of master. Number three is kind of ai and automation right, so utilizing these kind of tools that will allow you to have more human connection, right. It's if you think back to kind of go back to kind of 22 I remember the first wave of kind of automation coming out give me the keys to your linkedin, just let us, let us drive nightmare and I hated it. Right, you get these spammy essays and I hated it. It's come a long way since then and it's it's not about 5 000 outreach, you know, 0.005 percent hit rates. So utilizing technology to allow you to have conversations is key.
Speaker 2:Using video is essential, right, whether you like it or not. Everyone hates video because they think I'm going to look at absolute clown. I can tell you now I'll look at the clown and then you just get more comfortable and people give you constructive feedback 20 times more engaging than a written post, right, so it's up to you. If you don't want to use it, that's fine. Linkedin 99 of people don't produce content. They critique yours. I love that. There's your opportunity, right, so do it. And then the final two networking uh, human interaction is key. Go to events, go and be an sme in your market. I do all this typically before I pick up the call to you, so someone, if one of those touch points has gone, I know exactly who you are. So that's the kind of, that's the methodology.
Speaker 3:I love it. So someone who's never done any of those things before, like, what would you say? Start somewhere. What would be the first thing you think they should start doing?
Speaker 2:Mate 3W is kind of who are you Like? Who's your kind of target market? What is it you're offering? And just think about it. Why are you the expert in your space? Why are you someone that they should have a conversation with? If you're a client, you know what's the value there, right, versus the you know 10,000 other recruiters who are, let's say, working in IT or whatever it is. If you're a candidate, why are you the best person that's going to find them a job? Like they don't care about you know all these other things, or whether you wear nice suits or what you're into. That's that's fantastic. They really care about whether you're gonna have a job.
Speaker 2:Let's, let's be brutally honest. So I think, just nail that and get the fundamentals. Be committed and consistent. Like, do all that upfront work. It's also you've got to set yourself up for it's a marathon, not a sprint, right? You know we talk about boxing or whatever. You know you do a 12-week kind of camp. You're not going to see results in day one. You might. You'll definitely see results after 12 weeks. You'll certainly see results after six months and it's that consistency that gets people through. Most people. The first thing that's not working. It's rubbish. That didn't work. I don't believe in that. So may just manage expectations, be open to feedback, but stay committed and with ai everywhere nowadays.
Speaker 3:Is there any AI that you would recommend using, to kind of? You know, people who aren't doing this at the moment, to enhance their prospecting without losing, kind of the human element.
Speaker 2:The thing is and I'll talk about this in a sec, because I've been on the receiving end of a few pitches myself and actually given them constructive feedback Okay, most buyers or people are not saying I need AI in my business, right? I think first thing to do is go what's the problem I'm trying to solve? Okay, from the process that you've got let's say it's outreach Do you have an efficient process? Can you accelerate that? Can you make it more efficient? If so, and if AI can help, fantastic. But map out the process and go where are the touch points? Where's the human elements? Don't just go, expect it to go from opening relationship to winning business for you. That's where a lot of people kind of get it wrong. So there's many tools.
Speaker 2:Synaptico is another one that I really like, which is the AI based kind of email outreach purely for candidates, and I love this because of the concept behind it. It's, you know, it's built by recruiters and what the interaction does is it says it emails Blake, whatever, and the prompt is to get you on the phone. Right? Hey, I've got a role for you. A natural reaction, what to pay, and, da-da-da, let's have a chat. That is how I look at it and go. That's really clever, and if you're getting to speak to more people, that is a win, right. So I think work out the problem you need to solve. Don't expect it to do the end-to-end kind of for you, um, and also just work out is the investment in it, etc. Worth the actual the outcome all right.
Speaker 3:So just to kind of wrap up the kind of obedient prospecting, if you were to give one bit of advice yeah, um, and you've come from talking about doing 60 cold calls a day using ai there's a lot in middle. What would be the one thing that you think someone should change just to improve their output, the number of jobs they're picking up? What kind of tips would you give?
Speaker 2:Just do the groundwork, man, do your new research. Like, again, this is really doing the fundamentals really well, like that is the key thing. I think. Be a specialist Again, know your market and also understand that the person on the other end of your phone does not want to speak to a salesperson in that niche. They want to speak to someone that lives, breathes and dies by that niche. Right, you know, have, have insights. You've got to do the extra groundwork. You know what I mean. So I think that's the thing I'd say, which is really be a true specialist and get the what is the gift that you're giving, the insight that you're kind of sharing. So you know, that's the thing I'd kind of work on that's good.
Speaker 3:We're hearing that a lot, aren't we just insights, really deep diving into a niche that seems to be, you know, the secret sauce? If you're gonna, you know, do well in in your bd yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:There's a couple of topics that always get brought up, and the first is prospecting how to get in front of new clients. The and this is probably a good segue into like the discovery process is how to have a good discovery call with someone where you can get engagement with the client, you can sell your value, you can put forward your USP and then get more commitment from the client. So, from a discovery standpoint, you've done your AI, you've called them, you've introduced yourself, you've built a little bit of that rapport. How do you then transition from I'm prospecting to build a relationship to there's an opportunity here and I want to go through my discovery process to see if we're a good fit.
Speaker 2:Go back to the first point right, if you've done the research and you know that this person is a good fit you know, I hear this often Maybe there's not any kind of work, that maybe there's no jobs, that that's on you to do the research. Right, why would you call someone if you've done the research and you see that they're laying people off or what have you? Right? So I think that's the kind of the fundamental what I would say is again, go back to the point I made there before, knowing your market lead with insight, right. So again, hey, thanks for connecting. If I jump on a call now, right, I'm not looking to go straight to kill.
Speaker 2:So again, I built a five-step kind of sales methodology. Number one is attract attention and number five is close and the steps on the way in between mirror human behavior. So, engagement, rapport, trust, opening opportunity. Most people just want to go from one to five. Hey Blake, how you doing? Yeah, cool, you got any jobs? Boomf, right. You've heard this a million times. Imagine you've gone on a call and said hey, blake, steve, nice to meet you. Mate, look, I work in the space, I work in XYZ kind of sector. These are some of the trends that, looking at your website. Reading the news that you've got, it seems that you maybe have some of those challenges. You're okay with me to share something. So if you lead with kind of insight, most people try and go for the close instead of having a conversation. So that's the way that I think I'd approach it.
Speaker 1:So let's say you've done that, they've gone. Yeah, I am having those challenges and you go to the point where there is an opportunity and you unearth an opportunity. Do you have a, a framework or a structure that you take when you are sitting in front of a client, maybe taking a job brief over the phone, to be able to build more rapport, get more credibility, position yourself with more value like what's, what does it look like specifically when you're in front of a client, yeah, and you're taking a brief and doing a discovery?
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, it's proof points, mate, right, you know what I mean. So, again, if you go back to the point I said there before, this is where I believe a lot of the upfront work is key. So, if you talk about the five steps that I said before, 90% of the time now, the people that I will approach, we've had some touch points. Yeah, some touch points. Yeah, right, it's one to eight touch points to make a sale. So, whether that's on LinkedIn, whether it's on an event, et cetera, the more that you kind of do this and you don't go for the kill you know, we just met in whatever an event. You pick up over time, you see who's actually following your content, right? You, you narrow it down and you go they fit into my kind of prospect list of clients, right? So, again, again, that kind of upfront engagement is key.
Speaker 2:When you're in front of the client, right, again, what are you looking for? You're looking for confidence, trust, right, that is the rapport. If we build a relationship, again, there's so many recruiters that are actually out there. What makes you different, right? So it's proof points, which is the role that you've actually kind of got. You know, this is my track record in this particular space, right, these are some of the give insight. Also, this is what you want to be aware of. You know the market is challenging, rates are going up, but we're seeing that people are moving in this particular sector. So I think, just keep leading, leaving with insights, leading with knowledge, as opposed to selling, right? Um, so maybe that's that's kind of the process that I kind of go through, so continually giving proof points, bits of feedback and just examples of where you've kind of done a job better in your competition.
Speaker 1:So what would be like the number one mistake that you see recruiters making going through that process? I know you just said stop selling, lean in with insights, this type of thing, but if there was one bit of advice for a recruiter who is still finding their feet with client meetings, trying to do a discovery, trying to take a good job, brief, this type of thing, what's like the one thing that they need to be avoiding to not ruin that rapport or that?
Speaker 2:credibility. Patience is a superpower, right, and it might sound cheesy, but again, you're looking to build relationships with people. I think too many recruiters and I've been guilty of this myself, it still happens to me now you're desperate to kind of kill it, close it, whatever in the first touch point. Look for clients that are not just going to give you one opportunity. That client, if they're spending time with you, they want to build a relationship. Right, they don't want to go recruits. We have this belief that they want to work with everyone in the market. They don't, you know, really understand the brief and if you can help them, fantastic. If not, give that feedback. You know, time and time again I see people they've got a job, they don't think it's right or they, you know they will just flick these candidates over and stuff. It really devalues and degrades our industry. And you know, at the, at the end of the day they're just people. But I think that's the thing Honesty, trust. You know, building play the long game is the feedback that I've heard.
Speaker 2:And recently I actually spoke at an event and someone said to me the first question they said is what do you see in the recruitment market right now? What should recruiters be doing. I said I can talk about it for hours. I said, said, but how about if I went to three clients of mine over the years and asked them which I did three senior people, two procurement leads and a head of ta. Ironically, all three are looking for work purely coincidental, but this is where this is the market that we're in. They did it within 24 hours. One took five minutes, you know, one hour and I was, honestly, I was truly humbled by this.
Speaker 2:I've known him for years. One guy, three years, marie, seven, dennis, 12. I don't just use, they're not transactional right, they're people and I'll help them if I can. I invite them to events and stuff like that and they came back and they helped me. So that's probably one really good example of where I can give. I played a long game and I put so much effort into the relationship so people can see it, mate, when you're being, they can see it when you're being authentic. So that's been probably the biggest piece of success that I could probably share with people.
Speaker 1:What about uncovering someone's pain points? Yeah, so a lot of the time and you've kind of put this forward just now around leading with value being genuine, this type of thing A lot of the time clients don't really know with clarity on what they truly need or want. There's obviously a pain point there. It's, I just need to hire this person. And a good recruiter sometimes looks beyond just the JD and says like what are the pain points that you're experiencing? Do you have an approach, a structured question line of questioning that uncovers pain points that otherwise the client probably doesn't know about yet?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I gotta say at times I'm probably the most, the least structured person ever. If you speak to any of my former colleagues, it's it's up there and that's where I built. Like, when I talk about the methodologies, to take something you've done over 20 years and get it into four or five points is really hard, you know it's always. But to make something so simplistic. So when I talk about the first thing, the first thing I do is try and engage, get someone's attention right. That's what everyone is trying to do today. That's your currency. The second thing you're trying to do is increase engagement. Three is build rapport and trust to your point. The fourth is co-creing opportunity, and I talk about this right and whether it's just picking up one job. But I've really drilled down enough from from years of strategic kind of selling, where it was, you know, in an 18 month to 24 month sales cycle, right, where touch points. You go backwards and go forwards. That's the same process in principle. So we're sitting down, you've got a job. Brief, exactly that. But what is? What is the real pain? You know what I mean. So you're looking for a salesperson, whatever it is. Why did the last person not kind of? Is it the culture? Is it the market? Is it you're not paying enough, is it? You know that? Um, you're not advanced, whatever it kind of is.
Speaker 2:And I think, get, if you're bringing that area of expertise and you're a true subject matter expert, people can see that and that's that's what they're paying for. Again, I think we get sucked into this. They just want to kind of a bum on the seats. It's not, you know, really think about this. You know what is the impact, the positive impact they can have on the business. So so yeah, I kind of go back to that kind of first point go, I've got the attention and we built the rapport and are we really on on kind of the same page and then even kind of going before that.
Speaker 2:If you know what the brief is or the job spec, you should be ahead of the game. Right here's two or three candidates or whatever they're thinking would potentially make a massive difference, and even from a candidate side, one of the things that I like to do is give me examples of where you've made really made a difference. You know everyone can read a cv, but you know, particularly if it's in sales, you know what. What is your process? How have you done the background? You know, how have you, how do you engage with people? So that's what I kind of it's a two-way street. You're you're trying to build, obviously, you're trying to deliver to your client and also represent your candidates in the right way. So that's where I think go from that attention, engagement, rapport and trust through to the opportunity piece yeah, gotcha.
Speaker 1:So so have you got like an example of like a well-run discovery meeting. Yeah, that's worked really well for you in the past. Either it doesn't even need to be so much in the traditional job brief spec sense. It could be in a different lens, but if we get the flavor of what your general approach is for a good discovery, that would be really helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate. So I think there's two things. If I look at opportunities where I've done particularly more in the kind of strategic space the easiest clients, everyone's looking for new business, right. And if you've just done one opportunity with whoever they've just bought from you, you've built a report, you've gone through the process cross-selling, I think, is one of the biggest veins of our industry like we don't do it very well, right, we just go so kind of self-focused. So looking at that is an approach I always do. You know you just bought from us. Are there any other challenges that we can kind of uncover? So it's really asking lots and lots of questions. Knowing what's in your arsenal, right. So you know if you're working with them on IT, you know working with them in different kind of sectors, that that's key and it's it's such a missed opportunity. Is anyone else you can introduce us to, right? So really kind of the kind of the fundamentals. If I think about opportunities that we have before with clients, you know we've won a piece of work on contingent. We've gone in really simple can we help you with your permanent side of the business? You know we're dealing with this part of the business over here procurement, right. So just really building the blocks and having a kind of a map and a bit of an account plan really kind of helps.
Speaker 2:If you're looking on the strategic stuff. I was actually going to flip it around and I hope this makes sense a bit of a different kind of slant on it. But I got a lot of discovery calls to me and I had one recently from an AI solution provider. They led with it's AI and here's the price point. I went that's irrelevant to me, Like tell me what, what is it? You exactly? Okay, the problem, the problem that we solve, is we can help you shortlist candidates quicker than you know you can do manually with with X, Y, Z, manpower Brilliant. That's the problem that you're trying to solve. It doesn't matter what your cost is. I wasn't asking for AI et cetera, and if you'd actually led with that, the conversation probably would have gone a lot more kind of smoother. So I think people often approach it in the wrong way and I think bring it right back to what is the problem that you're kind of trying to solve. So hopefully that gives you a bit of a different take on it as well.
Speaker 3:We need to have the conversation right to get the potential prospect to say this is my problem, you know, first and foremost, so there needs to be a framing of the conversation to get you there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I was about to say that actually ties in well with the value piece. Yeah, um, because I guess another way of thinking of that is like what is the value, yeah, that we're presenting here and how to present that. So, um, ed, you've got yeah.
Speaker 3:So jumping into the value, so obviously the pitch or the value proposition. You know we've gone through how you prospect, how you pick up your jobs. In effect, you start the discovery meetings. At some point you've got to talk about what you do and how you do it. So how do you think recruiters should communicate the value to new clients who maybe they haven't worked with before, like the first time?
Speaker 2:yeah. So again I've said this, probably sound like a broken record. The research piece is key, right? You know I would much rather quality over quantity. You know people, and I see this time and time again. I've made 20 calls today and they're crap calls. Right, and you're going.
Speaker 2:There's probably a reason for that. Just focus on five. Control what you can control. Why would you speak to this person? What are you going to offer? So I know and and go and give, don't take. And what I mean by that is you know you're delivering insight. You know there's I'm going to make, I'm going to give you some information, or you're going to, you're going to leave the call thinking, geez, that person made a real impact on me. So, as I mentioned before and I'll give you, I'll give an example um, you know, if we just kind of picked up now, you know, bd, coaching, consultant services, whatever it is, ed, nice to meet you. Um, made steve tolan, we connected on linkedin. Um, reason I'm reaching out to you today, mate, is a recent report that came out from JobAdder 5,000 recruitment founders were surveyed, 95% unhappy with the BD strategy. It's unbelievable 95% unhappy.
Speaker 2:I'd love to share some examples, mate, of what I've been doing, working in the space for 20 years. I'd love to have a conversation with you, share something. Maybe you've got that challenge Bang you, bang. You've led with a statement, with intent. You know, with authority. People know typically what you kind of do. Don't pick up the phone and go hello, have you got a minute we've got? Is this a good time? I just I just sit back and I just go. You've lost it, mate. So you know, really, getting in there, those first kind of five to eight seconds are absolutely key. You know you go in there. Your energy is key, right. So if you're gonna go in there and you're shaking and you're this, that and you're finished before you even get in. But I'll tell you now, mate, like I actually am a bit of a nutter, I quite enjoy the cold call if I know that I've done the upfront work and I know that I've got a reason to call and I know that I'm coming from a place of you need to hear this.
Speaker 3:So, mate, that be my, my take on it and and I've been guilty of this you know being nervous, when you're quite new into recruitment, about speaking to more senior people. You speak to a hiring manager. You speak to a ceo. They're very different. Yeah, speak to someone in recruitment. Yeah, hr, yeah. What would be your take on how to coach recruiters to speak to a business owner versus talent, versus hiring manager?
Speaker 2:yeah, and different pain points, mate, right like so. I see this time and time again. I'm guilty of it, like I. You know I'm not the messiah. Like I, I make mistakes and I and I don't get it right all the time. But with more experience your hit rate and your success rate becomes better, like it generally does.
Speaker 2:And so if I think about a, let's say, a recruiter, an internal recruiter they've got a budget, they've got they've got right. Their role is to fill that job themselves, so there's a cost associated to it, right. So you know that's the challenge that you're often coming up against, right? And people just don't really kind of understand that it's hard. So on that level, focus on kind of just building the relationships and you want to be there when the opportunity does come up. And again focus on why you're the best choice. And again, focus on why you're the best choice and it's not the technology, it keeps it. If you focus on the relationship skills and I'm really good to do business with we might chat three or four times. You watch how it kind of works for you.
Speaker 2:If you're thinking about someone who's a bit more strategic than in a talent leader kind of role, it's probably more around strategy insights. I believe. Right, you know, in terms of, okay, what is the market doing? You know you speak to so many different clients. We're based in one Are we off the money, like, how's our brand doing these kind of things? Right, so you can go to a more strategic level. What I find with a business owner is, mate, they really want it's about the dollars, right, like the profitability. Am I getting the right people? So the conversations kind of differ. You know, do you align with our strategy? So, mate, that that would be how I'd kind of cascade it business outcomes with business outcomes yeah, mate, like you know.
Speaker 2:So you know if they're looking for a particular kind of senior role, you know they haven't got time to kind of kind of waste and you know every dollar is kind of valuable, but they're probably more interested in getting the the right person right. That really kind of aligns with them. So again, that kind of research piece is key. Yeah.
Speaker 3:What about hiring manager? You're taught in recruitment to avoid talent, avoid HR, go to the hiring manager. Should they be adjusting it slightly for a hiring manager Because they probably are less interested in business outcomes? If I'm honest, versus a business owner or a C-level, is there an angle you take, particularly with hiring managers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so, and we've had even just look at the last kind of 12 months. They're going to kind of pinpoint hiring managers. You know they've got projects, projects, but they need projects delivered on time, right? So, you know, it's always that kind of that chicken and egg, right? People say you can't go to line and things, but you've got to build relationships somewhere and you still want them.
Speaker 2:What I've seen is they can have a lot of influence, you know, even if I think about I won't mention departments but you know, in public sector, people say there's no spend, there's this, that and the other, okay, cool, but can we go and meet with these people? Yeah, we can, right, and half of them don't know the process themselves. They go look, I get a couple of roles every now and again. So what do I need to do? I can refer you or I can mention. Yeah, you can guess what it happened recently where they said so I've just told the recruiters that they need to, you know, include you on the distribution list, right?
Speaker 2:So if you're not speaking to hiring managers, you know, I think, going back to that point I meant that before is you don't want, if there's ways in which you don't want to get blocked right and you don't want to get someone come down and go. You guys are kind of finished right, so don't do anything. That's kind of dodgy. But, you know, build the relationship, ask open conversations and let them know that you know here's an opportunity. If there's an opportunity, here's what we supply. Often hiring managers don't know, um, you know, if there's ever anything we can assist you with, but invite them to events. Okay, do various things. You know, go with insight, not necessarily looking to kind of pick up that job, and I find that that kind of tipping point is, I say, one to eight touch points to make a sale. Typically, by the time people get to the third or fourth interaction, they're close, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And what's your view on storytelling? You know not how is your weekend? This is what I got up to, but taking them on a journey and I trained to you know people remember stories and how you make them feel, versus stats and figures. So what's your view on storytelling? When it comes to the pitch, mate, it's the.
Speaker 2:It's the art mate, like, if you, if you nail it I mean, everyone loves a good story right, I'm surprised I haven minutes, but, uh, if you think about someone that's on the receiving end, right, you know, whatever you're talking about, problems, that or you're giving, you're painting, a picture of. You know, as I just said there before, here's a, here's a bit of research that we saw. Here's the pain point right, that could be you, if you've nailed it and done your research, that they're picturing themselves in that position and hopefully thinking, yeah, if that, if you bang on, there's a chance you could help me. So storytelling is paramount, mates, and I think often people get caught up in going sound like robots or a script and stuff like that. You know, the biggest bit of and it really humbles me and I'm grateful, is the biggest positive kind of feedback is you're authentic, like you know.
Speaker 2:People know that I'm not using AI because I'm spelling mistakes or the fact that I mess up on a lot of stuff. Right, but it's me, you know, when you do videos and you stood there and stuff like that, the guys stolen, he's in the park again or whatever. But so, yes, storytelling, mate, and that's that's what I've preached paramount made. So yeah, really kind of focus on that.
Speaker 3:I love it. In my previous company we actually had the um. One of the story writers from pixar came and trained us or did a keynote and told us how to position a pitch along like a story and he'd written the incredibles and all those kind of cool things. It was like really, really powerful if you get it right. Um. Side note what's your advice on somebody um who struggles speaking to more senior prospects clients? Again, we've probably all been there at some stage in our career where you think the more senior they are, they're not going to want to hear from me.
Speaker 2:Yes, and even now, when I speak to people, senior people, I still get that kind of little bit of nervousness. You know what I mean, because they're senior people. They've they've got the war story, you know, they've got the stripes they've earned there, but they're busy people, right. So, but that last word, they're just people. Yeah, so you know, we kind of said there before if you are someone that has something that is worth their time and some insights, you know, then go there with a position of authority, like at the moment I'm actually working on a project, I'm sharing it, someone that's potentially looking to buy a recruitment business, right? So you're speaking to senior people, the way that you engage and stuff, and it's quite a sensitive kind of topic. So you have to do your research, right, you do multiple calls, people are busy, who are you? You know, doing the research but being respectful of their time. But again, they go back to. They check you out on LinkedIn, they check you out on whatever. If you're approaching me, now and again it does happen.
Speaker 2:I get lots of people pitching to me. They look, I respect the ones that have come to me with something that shows that they've done effort, and what I mean by. That is not reciprocate is someone reaches out and goes mate, I'd look at your website. I checked out your LinkedIn, right? I think I could really help you with lead flow or whatever. Here's a couple of cheeky recommendations.
Speaker 2:Wouldn't take you too long. Can I get five or 10 minutes of your time? And here's a couple of proof points of where you know people have gone on. That would get my attention and it probably made me say do you know what, mate, I'll give you 20 minutes off an hour of my time, right? It doesn't mean I'm gonna buy, and I think so many people the mindset is they think before they think it's that they're not expecting a success, and so they almost talk themselves out of it. The mind can be very convincing, right, this isn't gonna happen. This person's got a senior title. If you do the groundwork and you know you've got something to say and you go in there confident and with the right approach, you might get a result. You might not, but if you don't know, you don't try, you'll never know.
Speaker 3:Senior people have less time, but they're probably more receptive to value.
Speaker 2:I'd always say 100% you get to the point straight away, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Hey, episode of Confessions of a Recruiter brought to you by XRecruiter. Xrecruiter helps ambitious recruiters like you start, run and grow their own recruitment agency. Whether you're in blue collar, white collar, permanent or temporary recruitment, we help recruiters go from where they are today to where they want to be. So if you want to start your own agency, reach out and we'd love to help.
Speaker 3:And final question for me around value and recruitment. Pitch like what is the most common mistake or pitfall you've seen in recruiters when they're pitching and what's a tip you'd give them to help overcome that?
Speaker 2:Okay. So the most, the most common thing in pitching is just going and I said I can only relate it back to my own process you want to go from nought to a hundred in one false swoop, right, you know, we've literally just connected. Here's my full, full pitch. You know, full sale and they're like mate, like I, just connected at the start of a relationship. So I think, really take the time, build the relationships, build engagement, let them know you and you'd be surprised.
Speaker 2:I had a conversation with someone yesterday that we're talking about, um, potentially working together. I think it's probably a third or fourth call. It's a million miles away from that first call, right, and you can just see the body language is different, right, I know you, I know all your quirks, da-da-da-da-da, and people think that's a waste of time. It's not. It's not. It's far from it. So if you're not willing to invest in that, you can't expect miracles to happen. You can't expect miracles to happen.
Speaker 2:The other thing I'll say and again I always try and give a different lens on this is the pitfalls are, if you speak to a client, a prospect, and they say I'm really happy with ABC Recruiter, don't jump in and diss the competition. I hate it. It is the biggest stain on our industry and it happens time and time again. We've dealt with oh yeah, but they're having a tough time, they're having this and I just sit back and I go. Not only do you look a complete idiot, you paint a really bad picture of our industry. So, you know, always play to your strengths.
Speaker 2:In that example we're dealing with whoever awesome what they're doing. Well, you know, that's great to hear because I tell you what standards in our industry you know we've seen it's. It's a really high, high turnover kind of industry. What are they doing? Well, you know, think about it right and just think what that does for your kind of brand reputation etc. And I can tell you right now there's a lot of people I've known for years that have never bought a thing off me. That doesn't mean I'm a bad sales guy or whatever, but they're in your kind of network et cetera. So I always kind of play the long game. So yeah, just a different view.
Speaker 1:It's funny that you say that, because it's a natural instinct if you're competing against someone to try and knock them down a peg and elevate yourself. But it's actually really counterintuitive 100% when you actually start praising the other people and telling them how good they are, down a peg and elevate yourself. Yeah, yeah, but it's actually really counterintuitive 100 when you actually start praising the other people and telling them how good they are. Yeah, it actually builds much more trust and rapport to make someone want to work with you than otherwise. Yeah, so, um, it used. I used to do that all the time where, um, I'd be up against another recruiter like, oh man, they're actually really good, aren't they? Yeah, they, yeah, they must be smashing it. Are they doing a really good job? And they're like, well, not actually, no, no, no, no, no, no, not actually. And I'm like, oh, I've heard really good things about them.
Speaker 1:That's a surprise Well anyway, look, this is how we do it. And then you just get them talking. Chances are not. They're on the phone to you as a recruiter because a need is not being met somewhere along the line. And so if you lead them down the path of being nice, happy, grateful, praising other people, and then you get them talking about oh, they're actually not delivering right now, but they are usually good, they kind of sell themselves into the reason why they should talk to you in the first place, so you don't need to be like yeah, are they delivering, though? Yeah, are they?
Speaker 1:actually giving you the candidates you, can you can just, you can just kind of like I can picture it now.
Speaker 2:It's just you hear it so often, like people, you just yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um. So we've got two other two more topics that we want to talk on that I think are really important One that I've always lacked in, which is client relationship management, and I'll tell you why. And then the second is around objection handling. So these two things are really really important for a successful recruiter. So, client and candidate relationship management I'll be the first person to put my hand up. Client and candidate relationship management I'll be the first person to put my hand up, and I never had any sort of system, any sort of framework, any sort of idea on how to maintain relationships after you make the placement.
Speaker 1:When I first got into recruitment, it was pure new business. The moment you make the placement, you move on, you find a new company to make a placement with, and there was actually no thought on how can we retain and grow the relationships that we've already placed. And it wasn't until I started my own business where I thought why don't I just go back to the 30 companies that I placed with last year and just see if they've got any more roles? It seems like such an easy, you know, low-lying fruit, and it didn't occur to me until years into my recruitment journey. So I give you that context, because I'm sure there's more people out there in a similar boat that doesn't think about relationship management as seriously as they think about BD and new clients, because both of them are equally important, right, important, right. So do you have a framework or a secret source or a way that you think about an approach building out your relationships with your clients?
Speaker 2:my career has been built on client relationships. I'll just give you a couple of examples there um, people that we dealt with, or one business with 10 years ago still friends. So the the hardest thing. So when I say a framework yes, I have frameworks, a lot of it is being completely honest. It's just experience in my head. What I do is I make sure that I continually speak to people. We're always in contact. What do you speak about? It could just be as simple as how are you? You know what I mean? Like what's going on?
Speaker 2:No, agenda no agenda right, like so, literally going in they might be having a bad day, maybe they're worried about their job, various things. But here's I'll give you a very real example A couple of years ago. You know I've done in-person events for 10 plus years. It's what I kind of became known for and I get this question all the time. My events typically the audience has evolved over the past two to three years is probably 90 recruiters, competitors, right, and yes, you get hr people and procurement people, but what they want is to come and network. So what I do is I physically have the ability on that conduit for people to come in. We have professional speakers from hr, from recruitment, and I always have sports athletes, people, because the two things I talk about in recruitment is mindset mastery. If you don't have the right mindset, don't worry. If you're not upskilling, forget it.
Speaker 2:That is a way to answer your question that I make sure I'm in contact with people. You know every quarter I get about 100 and odd people. It's a lot of work and people say well, how do you get so many repeat kind of attendees? Do you know why? Because it's not about me. I let them network and they speak to the, they speak to the competitors, they do whatever. That's probably a really physical and real example of how my framework is. Every quarter I will do that and I'll bring people in that I'm speaking to, because that allows them to build more trust. And again, I'm not selling, but after the event, you know you'll pick up with someone, right. So, mate, that's probably a very visible kind of framework or strategy.
Speaker 1:Sorry that I've used Okay, so you're talking events. Yeah, invite everyone along. Yeah, keep in touch with them, network with them, like, you've invited me to a bunch of events. Yeah, have you been? No, I'm like geez steve's. Yeah, steve's inviting me to a bloody event again? No, but it's really good and it's actually uh, it's admirable because, um, what you're saying? I've lived and breathed on the receiving end to go. Yeah, you actually do send a video in the park.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you do invite me to events, and so it's but it's, it's, it answers the, the, the point there that you just said, and it's it's, it's classics we talk about putting yourself out there, it's the lurkers, right, it's not the people that are necessarily your high five club, as I kind of say, but when you talk about you've just really nailed a great point is people see you and they feel as though they're connected.
Speaker 2:The most common bit of feedback that I get time and time again is love, you, love, love the videos. Right, I see what you're up to. You know that that was good. You know, like a point about branding or the recruitment market or whatever. So you're in contact with people, even though you might not feel like directly, like you're picking up the phone and they say the events is kind of the, the big kind of finale where you do it, you kind of bring it together, but they all come because, again, they've followed the content, there's value there, right, like, and again it's that kind of networking piece. So so, yeah, mate, that's it was quite a deliberate kind of strategy, but all about sharing value.
Speaker 1:Yeah, gotcha what about a recruiter? Um, generally, a recruiter is not going to be able to put on events. Um, what should a recruiter be thinking to expand existing relationships, to squeeze more out of them, to grow deeper, wider? What's kind of the three steps that they should be thinking about with existing clients so that they can get more value from them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it goes back to your early point. And again, the strategic sales kind of piece we talked about, I think is creeping more in now into the everyday, the transactional, and it was again a stick people used to beat me with you sell big MSPs or whatever, and I go yep, it's a fair point when times get harder. Sit down and map out who are the prospects, who's our current client list? I hear this time and time again, someone speaking to me yesterday this time and time again, someone speaking to yesterday. We probably got 300 clients where we do one placement with whatever. That would be a really good starting point.
Speaker 2:So who's in your existing kind of client portfolio? Is there a few business? When did you last see them? Like, when did you last get out and see them? Have they moved on? Right? You know? Do you understand again, the external kind of factors that are taking place, right? So again, even simple things, I just say and get out and actually meet with them, right so, and take along just some market insights. You know you're one clients, you're dealing with excellent clients, right, to take along some insight and go. I just want you to know this is what we're seeing in the market, right what's happening with the business. So assess current kind of client portfolio, get out there and offer value and kind of meet face to face there. They'd be three things I'd say I like that you said something earlier in the podcast.
Speaker 1:You were talking about co-creating an opportunity. What is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the modus operandi is have you got a job? Can I fill a job? Right, you know. So, if you think about the way times are kind of changing. Going back to the point that you made before it, right, you know, a business's most valuable commodity is it's, is it's people, right? So are you just that person that's looking for one job 15%, 20%, whatever I'll fill out, I'll move on, gone bang and it's don't come to me.
Speaker 2:You know when things kind of go, if you're sitting there and you've got relationships and you're a true expert, right, it could be in the technology space or whatever a public sector and you're sitting down, you're building rapport, you want to be seen or the utopia is to be seen as someone that is so immersed in that market. You've got this one opportunity. What's the next? Five, six, seven, eight, that's kind of coming along, right? Listen, how are you going to facilitate them? They're not going to. They might say I think I can fill 60, 70, but there's two or three that are probably going to come out.
Speaker 2:Sweet, how could we work together on that? Right, it's a small market, right that we're working in this particular niche. I'll probably have access to a lot of client. You know candidates that you might be speaking to, but I'm also, I'm so invested in this space. Again, let me tell you about the little external things that I do to make sure I'm getting into these kind of candidates. So it's proving that you go the extra mile and that when someone comes to you with that opportunity, you're the natural choice. Right, it's not about the race or whatever. It's just a case of you would probably make five calls and get me five great candidates. So proof points again engagement, build and trust kind of credibility. So how?
Speaker 1:do you, do you say the word, co-create an opportunity with a prospect so yeah, I mean it, it depends.
Speaker 2:I think it's more the behavior, like if you've put the the upfront, the upfront work in, what you want to get to is that is that kind of place where you're building something together. So again, I try and take this strategic sales kind of approach and sit down, because I think recruiters have to work harder and harder now to win an opportunity. That's a fact. So you have to go in and consult and again, that kind of give before you take. That's the kind of key thing. So again, if we're sitting down you said it there before the tip and points I find is about three to four kind of conversations where you're giving information, you're showing that you're an expert in that market and you're basically saying this is how I can help you. At some point they're probably going to go okay, I think you're the kind of value partner that we would look for. And then when an opportunity kind of comes, you know you can ask the question when that opportunity is there, would I be someone that you would trust to give that opportunity to? I?
Speaker 1:like that. And so how would you, how would you typically train a rookie recruiter? Yeah, to be more proactive with the account management side of things, the relationship building side of things, without coming across desperate, pushy, a little too much yeah, mate, it's.
Speaker 2:I just trained a couple of people in the last role there at Pinpoint and I think, if I give you kind of my take on this right now you've got experienced recruiters 10 plus years that if they're not willing to change, they're very vulnerable. And I see a lot of businesses shifting the model and bringing in grads because they will do exactly what you tell them to do, and I think that's a really good kind of approach, right. So people to kind of come in. So first thing is that they're gonna, they want to do things that are going to make them successful, right. So they're gonna, they're gonna watch what you do.
Speaker 2:So I think too many recruitment founders these days I've got used to playing, you know, sitting in the back seat. No, no, you're up front, mate, you're driving. Show them how it's done. Too many people I've been doing it 10, 20 years. I don't need to do that anymore. I'm too removed from a desk. Mate, you should be the ones leading with your bidet. They will follow you to the edge of the cliff and off. So show them how it's done, right, like that is the best bit of leadership advice that ever.
Speaker 2:I respond really really well to that myself. I respond really really well to that myself. These are the outcomes. You know, this is how you make a quality call. I want you to put this list together. I want you to reach out to X number of people. Come out with me and I'll show you how I meet with people. Watch how I engage. You know, it was a huge compliment when the grads we took out of Pinpoint Marcus and he just said when you go to a meeting, you can see the mutual respect you know and and because people go, what are you saying? What are you and you're just having conversations, right, so they, they, they understand that. It's about that rapport, trust, you know. So, I think, being authentic. But you've that's on, it's on you, mate. Like, if you've been in this 10, 20 years, don't expect someone to come in on day one and be an expert, right, like you know, you've got to show them the ropes and if they fail after three to six months, you know what. That's also on you yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:Um. So so before we move on to objection handling, yeah, you, you mentioned something a little bit earlier around asking for more opportunities. Yeah, how do you? Is there something you say specifically? Is there a strategy? How do you coach a rookie recruiter in exploring and getting more opportunities than just the one job on that they might be, that might be in front of them?
Speaker 2:yeah, mate. So again, let's go back to that kind of that relationship piece, right, and I think look for clients that are, first and foremost, if you know that there's more opportunity there, you know, let's just say you filled, so you filled that opportunity. Keep in touch with the hiring manager, keep in touch with the candidate, right, you know. Make sure, you know, ask open questions, keep delivering value, you know. So it's really going the extra mile and kind of being proactive, but I just generally I think that once people have done the deal, they move on and the amounts of waste and you know you've got clients that will be there. So it's just really asking the question but go in the extra mile and't know if you're looking for anybody right now, but if you are, we had success on that role.
Speaker 2:Did you also know a couple of your competitors? They're actually shrinking in that area, so we're starting to see a lot of people that want to move or they're actually growing in that particular area. So by just going and saying, okay, you've had success, you've got a proof point, you're clearly invested, you're proactive, but you know the market and you're giving me insight, because that hiring manager will go back into their internal business and go. Do you know what Guys over there? They're ramping up like crazy, or actually they're shedding. We're winning. You're giving people information that actually helps them. So that's probably how I'd go about it.
Speaker 3:So, moving on to objection handling, and let let's be honest, recruiters face objections all the time. Do you have a structure or a framework or um a process you follow when it comes to handling objections?
Speaker 2:again, it goes back to the, the kind of the five points that I mentioned before right, like, so I think I never. Firstly is listen, right, so you know, making sure that you're reading the the kind of the signals I would always go into. So we talk about ejection, handle on a call, I would always go in with like an impact, the ramp, like a statement, and again, people know exactly then why you're there. Honestly, some of my calls last 20 seconds and they'll go okay, get it. Now is not a good time, right, but it's very seldom, is it? No, do one Because they get a sense. And I followed up. It happened the other day with a very senior leader and he said yep, keen, send me an email. That's it. We follow up. We've had several kinds of conversations so active, listening.
Speaker 2:Your objective on the call is to stimulate interest. Okay, people are busy. So the first thing I would say is you know the People are busy. So the first thing I would say is you know, the first bit of feedback I would typically get is you know, we don't use recruitment agencies or there isn't a need right now. Okay, cool, yeah, thought that might be the case because you know what. That's exactly what we're seeing in the market, right.
Speaker 2:So actually on that point I'm going to send you just a little bit of a white paper survey that we did from 30 of our kind of top candidates at the moment that are looking for work. You might be surprised to know salaries are kind of dropped or what they're looking for. Things have changed. The people are open. Just thought it might be of interest to you. You know. Just you know don't necessarily but think almost pre-plan the negative response. And I know that might sound a bit, you know, if you kind of expect it, but I always to to do a lot of work on what the anticipated objections, right, and if you're one step ahead and you don't take it personally, then I think you've got a much greater chance of when you next kind of pick up the phone to them, you know, in a, in a three or four weeks down the line so kind of get ahead of the game.
Speaker 3:So not necessarily dealing with the objection there and then, but just agreeing and then you know, aligning on a time to reconnect or something like that.
Speaker 2:I think, if you've planned out your core plan, let's just say you're doing five right and I think honestly, I think five pd calls right now is a really good if someone did 25 a week and they were solid, brilliant, and they got five leads out of it or five meetings like that's. That's a realistic kind of kind of metric that we're looking at right now. So if you've done those five and you've planned and you know what's going on, you've done a bit of work or research around the business. If your objective is simply to engage and open a conversation, if you'd come to me and you knew what was going on, I think you've got a really high chance of having a conversation, right. So the objections are typically the same Timing's not right, this, that and the other, and we just I liken it as to you, you're jumping off the edge of a cliff, right, and you can see people.
Speaker 2:You know this call is not going well. Yeah, but take pause, reflect, be open to feedback. What worked, what didn't work? I guarantee it's you right, I guarantee it's you. Energy just didn't get them on the hook right. So I think, pause, reflect, but don't go and then do another 20 bad ones. Just listen and go back and kind of pause and reframe.
Speaker 3:So what about if you know you're doing a call, there is a job on, we're using another recruiter, we're just going to see how they go. You're in the kind of the strike zone, then you don't necessarily want to let that go because you know there's an opportunity there. How would you try and face something like that versus you know, okay, here's some white paper and we'll call you back in a week. Would you try and address it on the spot?
Speaker 2:yeah, mate. So I think again, get ahead of the call. If there's a job that you just see an advertise, right, if you're smart, maybe you've got a couple of candidates there that you know probably bang on. So again, I always say this the recruit was like go to go, give, don't take, right. So, um, have something there that is going to make them. You know, show that you've done the upfront work, the potential. Hey, listen, mate, I saw that you had that role advertised. I've actually seen it advertised by xyz kind of recruiter. You know they're really kind of good in that space.
Speaker 2:Um, I wouldn't be doing my job. I didn't ask whether you're open to other other agencies working it, because if you look at me on LinkedIn, we're just about to connect or we are connected. You'll probably see that's my area of speciality, right, that's all I do. I only deal with PMs or what have you. So if you are open to it I've got a couple of candidates that worked at ABC I'll happily kind of send them through. But you know if the other agency or whatever is struggling. But you know what, either way, you're someone that wanted my network right and let's, let's get a coffee either way, but just so you know those particular roles. So, again, authority, background and if it marries up with they're looking at, they can see that the messaging is correct of what you're putting out there and your brand. Yeah, personally I would take that call seriously.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you can see your style is very much. Don't push too hard. Let's build that long term. There's going to be an opportunity down the line patience.
Speaker 2:Someone said it recently, I didn't. Patience is a superpower. Yeah, it is, and it's also just reading the room right again, no one, no one in the history of sales like being sold to right. It's not, but it's identifying problems, challenges, challenges kind of solutions. And I think maybe if we went back to kind of 22, the post COVID boom, where jobs, you'd open the window and 10 jobs come in, that's changed now, right, so focus on the. I think again I keep saying this the fundamentals in 20 years of being recruited haven't changed. I think we've got so used to instant gratification and the barrier for entry was quite low. And your recruiters on the other end, the poor, the hiring managers, they're just being bombarded. So I don't think this is a positive, but I think the bar is so low to be grace and actually just lead with quality. It makes you stand out.
Speaker 3:So last question what's the one bit of advice you'd leave our listeners with around objection handling?
Speaker 2:don't take it personally, man, like yeah, control what you can control. So you know this, this part that you you don't know unless you put yourself out there. But I honestly think so many people get into their heads that that it's dawn or they're not going to get a result before they even try. If you're in that mode, you're toast. So control what you can control. It's actually not that bad. And the other thing I'd say is the amount of people picking up a phone these days, mate, is pretty minimal. So the chance of success, if you've done the research, is probably quite high.
Speaker 1:So we covered prospecting, discovery calls, candidate relationship, objection handling. I think we've covered a lot, so a lot of really key insights. What would the one thing, though, for a recruiter to take away from this episode? What's the one thing that they should be, the key lesson that they should take away?
Speaker 2:Yeah, be yourself, be authentic, Like I said, everyone else has taken. You know, if I look at one thing I'm I'm proud of, proud of, and I'll take it back a step. Someone said to me recently what's the one thing you wish you changed earlier, and it was it was that I was just myself. I felt like I had to fit this corporate image and now I just say, yeah, sold fish to the age of 27, never turned on a laptop explains my computer skills, by the way. When, when you're being yourself, you'll be surprised, mate, like how people get drawn to you if you're seen as authentic. Don't just try and blend in with the background. Be yourself, put yourself out there. You know that's the best bit of it. That's honestly what I've built my kind of persona on just being authentically me.
Speaker 1:Moving into the final minutes of the pod. Now, have you heard of? Are you smarter than ed? Have you heard of that game I have, oh dear. This is the fun part. We're having a shot of whiskey at 10 am.
Speaker 3:No, we're not. We've got to do it. Every game I want to be toast by about 5 pm.
Speaker 1:Normally you get a shot of hot sauce. Okay, yes, whiskey, but it was about 5 p. Normally you get a shot of hot sauce.
Speaker 3:Okay, yes, david Whiskey, but it was about 5pm. I just wonder if 10am is the right time for it.
Speaker 1:What year did Australia host the Summer Olympics in Sydney? A Steve Steve.
Speaker 3:Correct, that was an old one as well. I felt like I couldn't use that, just had to let me get that. Yeah, I was like I can't use that.
Speaker 1:Well, you said you'd win all of them, because they're online.
Speaker 3:Well, you know what, apparently, steve's got?
Speaker 1:you which country won the FIFA World Cup in 2018? A Brazil, b Argentina, c Germany, d France. It's France, isn't it? Yes? Oh no, I forgot those ones were drunk, for our next one.
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:This isn't recruitment related, but this will do.
Speaker 3:And this is for the win. Is it 2-0, by the way, it's 2-0.
Speaker 1:Which country is known as the birthplace for cricket? A Australia, b England.
Speaker 3:Ed, I'm going to say England. Yes, come on, steve.
Speaker 1:Let's go. He's back the character Tyler Durden Ed.
Speaker 3:Fight Club To all. He's pulled it back.
Speaker 1:Come on, which Australian city is known as City of Churches? Steve.
Speaker 3:You can have it.
Speaker 1:Adelaide.
Speaker 3:Well played, steve's won.
Speaker 1:Congratulations.
Speaker 3:Steve.
Speaker 1:You are officially smarter than Ed. Ed, you're pretty dumb man, I know.
Speaker 3:I'll do the whiskey. It's going to be a tiny bit.
Speaker 1:Put it in your mouth, get all the oxygen Out of your mouth and just go Nah, nah, because as soon as you breathe in, you can taste the, the fumes. Alright, good, alright. Our last guest has a question for you, yep, that you're going to answer. Okay. After question for you that you're going to answer, okay, uh, after you've answered it, you're going to write in the diary the question for our next guest.
Speaker 3:This is from mike dixon axr what are you doing to ensure your business will be successful without you? Great question, ai.
Speaker 2:Um, it's a bit of a I mean that one because at the moment stolen, like the business actually kind of is me at the moment, if that makes sense. But so if I take it back to my kind of my previous role, I was there at Pinpoint, I think once in there someone has got a strong kind of personal brand et cetera. That's great, but the business can't survive just being on on kind of one person, right? So I think what I aim to do and it goes back to that question, I hope I'm answering this in a way is bringing people up to that kind of level. So when we talk about kind of bringing grads in, it can't just be is you're the leader, that you are the jedi kind of master, right?
Speaker 3:so there's like a big vacuum between exactly and everyone else.
Speaker 2:So again, because in my current business it is me, but in any business that's what I aim to do is to make sure that other people get up and it's not just the Steve Toland show, you know doing the BD et cetera, because one you'll get burnt out, but number two, it's not sustainable and you're not going to kind of grow the business. So hopefully that answers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, love it. Thank you, Steve, for joining us on Confessions.
Speaker 3:It's been awesome, it has. Final question If anyone wants to get a hold of you, what's the best way to do it?
Speaker 2:Two people the last week have met me in Killkill.
Speaker 3:Park when I'm actually taking a video. That's not the idea Hang out in a local park and Steve will be, there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mate, linkedin I'm not too hard to kind of find. Yeah, linkedin is probably the best place. Love it Awesome. Thank you. Thank you, cheers.