Confessions of a Recruiter
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Confessions of a Recruiter
Mastering BD : Property & Construction | COAR S1-EP8
We sat down with Kylie, founder of Prime Recruitment & Consulting , to unpack a smarter, calmer way to build a winning desk in property and construction: fewer dials, better conversations, and a clear plan for trust that compounds. Kylie takes us through her path from real estate into a boutique agency built around the full property lifecycle, and why aligning your niche with genuine interest keeps you curious long enough to become useful.
We dig into practical mechanics recruiters can use today. You’ll hear a crisp distinction between a lead, an opportunity, and a job so your pipeline becomes honest and predictable. We map out discovery meetings that earn respect: send an agenda, do deep research on projects and people, and anchor the chat on outcomes at six and twelve months instead of a laundry list of duties. Networking turns into a lead engine when you’re present at industry forums and seasonal events, not just pitching but sharing what candidates want and what the market is signalling.
If you want your BD to feel more like advisory work and less like chasing, this conversation gives you the structure, scripts, and mindset shifts to get there. Subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with a recruiter who’s ready to swap volume for value.
· Our Website is: xrecruiter.io
So Kylie, this episode is all about business development. Is there a change in your approach nowadays to maybe what it was when you first got into the industry?
SPEAKER_00:I stopped talking about those days where it was 150 calls, you know, 15 client meetings.
SPEAKER_03:Why doesn't that work anymore?
SPEAKER_00:There's no desk phone. That was all we were used to. You know, when the desk phone rang right next to our screen, you pick it up, you know, that ring would force you to pick it up. Now, you know, everyone's phones on silent, or, you know, it's in their pocket, or they're just not connecting like that these days. Again, which is why networking events, industry forums being seen is just so important because people get to know you. We generally go about sometimes to meetings, pairs, having that car chat on the way or that tram chat on the way. Tram chat, that's very Melbourne is.
SPEAKER_02:I just made a lot of having.
SPEAKER_04:All right, Kylie Jzinski from Prime Recruitment. Thanks for joining us on Confessions.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_04:So, Kylie, this episode is all about business development, building your desk, building out your network, getting jobs on, building the pipeline, this type of flavor. So I think I'm really excited to go through exactly what your process is, what you've done in your business, running it six and a half years. Um, and so let's just start though, for people who don't know you, uh, to talk about who you are, where you've come from, and some of the successes in your career over the next five minutes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure. Um, I'll I'm the founder, director of um Prime Recruitment, as you mentioned, six and a half years now in the um property and construction industry. So we're very much a boutique specialist um in that space. Where I come from was property originally. And funny enough, the the consultants in Prime have all come from property backgrounds as well. So it's perfect, very um handy to be able to understand the intricacies of the market and the challenges I suppose our clients face in business and in market as well. Um, but going back to that, as I said, real estate was my um my the beginning of my career selling homes in Williamstown. And um fortunate enough to have received a call from someone I used to work with who had joined Hudson from real estate. And he said, listen, I think you need to come and sit down with me and have a chat and find out what this recruitment game's all about. So I did, and I um didn't actually get the job with Hudson. Funny enough. Um I thought I'll go to a boutique and learn from some of the industry best rather than the bigger um, you know, in I suppose bigger players in the industry. I just felt that more aligned with with me and what I needed to learn and what I need to know. So I joined PKL, um business support recruitment firm, and started the temp desk there for Melbourne. So it was all business support recruitment, um, fast-paced temp desk, you know, got it up to sort of 80 um odd staff out. And it was very transactional, but it taught me discipline, process, um, grit, you know, everything that you need to run a flying temp desk. So had a great career there and then felt the need to become a specialist. I was very much a generalist there and um pinpointed Judd Farris as a property and construction recruitment firm where, again, you know, top talent that were seen in the industry and somewhere I could bring my passion for property into the game of recruitment. So I joined Judd Farris and spent seven years there, um, cementing my um, I suppose my yeah, love for property in that industry and also love for recruitment and facilitating careers and seeing businesses thrive. So I had a great career there. Um, before Future You um knocked on the door, which is where Ed and I spent time together. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:What's Ed really like? I was good at table tennis. I remember we played table tennis and Kylie was just smashing the park. He was boom, boom, boom.
SPEAKER_00:I'm like, oh, these calls don't I don't know what they think we're doing in the background here, but we're having fun.
SPEAKER_05:That's so good.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So how long were you at Future U for?
SPEAKER_00:Uh, two and a half years. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I think it's about that, wasn't it? Nearly, yeah, nearly seven years. I think I was because I think I started just before you, but left before you as well. So yeah, we'll have been about that, I think.
SPEAKER_00:I went on Matt Leave um from Future U and yeah, then decided whilst I was on maturity leave to start Prime. So, but yeah, Future U was a fantastic opportunity to um to again go back into startup land, but do it with experienced operators in the industry from all parts of the globe, all different sectors, um, and you know, the people were at the helm of Future U, and certainly those that were coming in to build a desk and build a presence were experts in their field. So I just knew I wanted to be surrounded by that, which was a great journey.
SPEAKER_05:Awesome. And I think one of the highest performers, if not the highest performer in future you as well. Really? Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah, big times. Big tickets.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Oh, there we go. All right. Well, I'm glad we're talking about BD then if you're one of the high performers. No, that's really that's really good. And so then six and a half years, you run your own agency. Uh, what's give me a bit of a uh description on your agency at the moment you do construction, recruitment, is it yourself? Do you have staff? What does that look like?
SPEAKER_00:We specialize in property, so the full life cycle of property, depending on where that project might be at, um, or otherwise, you know, where the business is servicing the industry. Um, all role types, really anything from a coordination level and in between up to executive. Um, we have four consultants that specialize in their market sector of the property life cycle. So that's um design, engineering, project management, construction, real estate, property development. Um, and how that, you know, I suppose the the thought process behind that was to embed ourselves into the market that circulates and networks and people can change, you know, their careers within the industry. Um, so it all sort of feeds around the the full property life cycle where we can sort of tap in and provide insights and facilitate careers essentially.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's that's a perfect segue into this start of essentially the BD journey, which is deciding what niche to go into and how to map the market essentially and know if that niche that you're going into is going to be fruitful. So you have four divisions essentially, yeah, uh, currently at your business.
SPEAKER_00:Four consultants that focus in their core areas.
SPEAKER_04:In each yeah. And so how do you know that that sector is worth pursuing? Uh and maybe if I can put this from the lens of maybe an experienced recruiter, they're not getting the wins in their industry at the moment. They're thinking about changing niches and they're wondering, how do I change my niche? What do I focus on? Like how how do you go about that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Feel you, you know, you sort of need to know your drivers. And again, I mean, personally, it's a property's a passion of mine. I do development on the side and always been investing in properties. So it aligns with me. It's uh an interest. Um, so I know when, you know, the whether we're growing or or hiring, you know, it's really getting down into, as I said, the drivers and and the passion, you know, for for an industry. So I think you've you've got to know that it aligns and the people in that or the projects in that space, you know, is something that you're interested in because, you know, when you're doing your research and your market mapping or um you're you're having those client conversations, you need to know you're going to connect. And I'm not saying you're gonna connect with everyone, but you need to have some common ground, obviously, to build that relationship.
SPEAKER_04:So Good advice. So just find something that you've got a passion in.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So for you, obviously, property and construction. Yeah. Um if it's someone else, I don't know if they've got a medical background, maybe try medical. Is that kind of like the flavor of what you have to do?
SPEAKER_00:And sometimes, you know, it doesn't have to be that black and white. Um so it can, again, it's probably just, you know, knowing that you're you're about to invest in an industry where you want to be seen as an advisor. So it needs to, you need to look at the long term. Yeah. It's not going to be just a sidestep or a short step. I think if you know that recruitment is for you and you're passionate about that, then aligning yourself with an industry will uh lift your credibility, your reputation, and it will feel like your relationship building rather than having to sell people or, you know, prospect within a business for a need.
SPEAKER_05:And within your own business now, obviously you're four consultants operating in the specific areas. What made you pick one before the other? Is it just about finding the right consultant or is it like that we can see lots of jobs over there? We're gonna go there first.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I suppose having experience with Judd Farris being a property and construction specialist, um, you know, it's it's and as I said, just knowing the desks that sort of feed, it's a lot of you know, there's a lot of lead sharing and information sharing within the business um in the property space. So again, you know, we're all able to, you know, work with a large um global client or a national client or otherwise, you know, and work across their entire business through, you know, in what they do. So again, it's probably more um focused on a collaborative approach internally within the business to make sure that um the consultants are able to share information and an opportunity.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. Okay, makes sense. So what's the first step for someone, let's say you've you've just hired them um and they need to go out and build their desk, so to speak? Like what's step one? How do you coach them or or give them advice on what the first step is? Is it build a hit list? Is it send out a bunch of emails? Like, can you walk us through that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So I mean, obviously the you know, the database that I've um I've built over the last sort of six years is, you know, all cold, warm, and and hot contacts, call them, you know, who we've placed with, who we've met with, you know, who we've had um a job on with. So there's a lot of information in um in the database to start with. Um you know, it's I suppose I'm very much sort of coaching with the consultant on the marketplace, you know, what it's doing currently, who's who in the zoo, and and then, you know, again, using the tools in the database to be able to, you know, purely print off lists of information and history and and um and um all that goodness that comes with them having confidence to pick up the phone, introduce themselves and their experience, and you know, um be able to provide insights and ultimately, you know, get that meeting with the client to understand their business and start providing value. So there's, you know, naturally a lot of um, a lot more calls, contacts, you know, um to be made, but then using LinkedIn, you know, being able to um showcase their profile and start to build those contacts, communicate, reputation follows at the same time.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, we're talking about leads before. Um, and you mentioned you do a lot of like networking events. Like walk us through how your kind of networking events and showing up physically ties into lead generation.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It's you know, in the property industry, it's it's very heavily networked. Um, you know, everyone's um delivering a um uh a building or a project, and it's such a strong team-based um delivery model and approach. So it comes down to, you know, everyone in the property industry um wanting to network and and knowing that's best for business and for relationships. So you need to be seen, you know, in that crowd. Um, you know, we need to be seen as um the advisors on what the employment market is doing, what candidates are seeking, you know, understand what businesses, what their strategy is to grow and and the the talent that they need. So again, being um present in forums, networking events, um, you know, being providing material for industry um, you know, research and and information that's sort of you know circulating daily is is really valuable.
SPEAKER_04:Um Did you ever feel like you didn't have any value to give before you started going to these networking events? Like I'm just trying to put on my like two, three year experience recruiter hat on. Yeah. Showing up at an event, showing up in an event for jobs. And then going, go provide some value. You'd be like, oh fuck, I know I'm you know, like so did it you ever feel that? How did you overcome it?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, of course. Like I think naturally for everyone sort of stepping into a room, um, you know, whether it's a a round table of 10 people or whether it's, you know, 500 to 1000, some of these property events can be. I suppose it's just knowing, knowing your value, um, you know, knowing what you know. You know, you don't need to know everything, of course, but you just need to be curious, um, listen, um, you know, get get just get to know people, um, to be honest with you. You know, it's it's all about being authentic. Like you're not going to walk into a room and pretend that you're someone that you're not or you know everything. But what you do know is about, you know, and and it's doing the research daily, um, trends, whether, you know, it's the the candidates that you've been talking to or interviewing and what they want and you know, sharing that information with with someone else. It's and as I said, you're not going to, you know, verbal diarrhea on everyone, um, you know, what you know and how you go about recruitment. But as I said, it's just being curious and being present and being being seen. Um, you know, it's yeah, it's it does take time, no doubt about it. Um, and as I said, you know, confidence comes with that. But yeah, you know, how often do you go to the events?
SPEAKER_05:How many are there that happened?
SPEAKER_00:Um, look, there's, you know, obviously time has to to permit, but you know, the the industry events where everyone's there to, you know, just there's really no topic of conversation around work or the industry. We're all just getting together and having a chat, whether it's the AFL grand final event, um, it's the Christmas event, and you know, literally there's no agenda. It's um it's just catching up. You know, how's business been the last 12 months? Or, you know, what are you looking forward to? How's your holiday? How's the kids?
SPEAKER_05:So you just start to become that familiar face in the industry. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um, as I said, you know, it's building a relationship and that doesn't always have to be work-oriented. It can be, you know, just sharing, sharing the wins, sharing the losses, whatever that might look like.
SPEAKER_04:How do you keep on top of events like that? Uh that's probably something that I'm uh I probably have a gap in is is attending these types of events, even if it's like a grand final or an industry event, that type of thing. Is there any kind of I don't know, do you have an event calendar that you go, these are the top four events in our industry that we should probably go to and and network with people, or what does that look like?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, you know, I mean, you know in your industry um who's affiliated with what. So I was on the committee for the Property Council of Australia for a number of years. So that's always been a regular um, you know, you get you get emailed, obviously. You, you know, you subscribe to these things or you're otherwise involved, or you're doing your research to know who's attending or when you are attending these, you know, what else they're um they're you know, a lot of these industry um events and networking forums, they're they're born again with others that want to do it a little bit differently or want to do it a bit more exclusive, want to do it larger. So I think if you're always sort of present or keeping um up to date with, you know, urban developer or any piece of industry news, they're not just pushing out um changes to legislation or um planning schemes. They're generally pushing out how can we all get together to collaborate and how can we all get together, you know, for the greater good of this industry. So you're regularly updated, no doubt about it. You just gotta pick and choose what what fits.
SPEAKER_04:What's the difference between a lead and a job on? Because I I I run into this with uh with my consultants. Um sometimes I go, I've got like 10 jobs. Sometimes there's like you talk about metrics of like where you want your pipelines, like you've got to have 10 jobs on, chances are you'll fill three of them, you'll do 30k for the month, like just these general kind of metrics. Yes. Um if we're thinking about like actual jobs on versus just a lead, yeah. Do you distinguish them in some capacity? Like how how so?
SPEAKER_00:Um, oh gosh. There's you know, we have um in the business, we have processes in play. I mean, we use bullhorn, we use analytics, um, we have metrics that track processes from a lead, and a lead is a piece of information, whether it's a client name, um, a business, a project. Um, it's it's basically it's information. And then the lead turns into an opportunity. And it's just through qualifying, again, through having conversation or having a second touch point, um, you know, getting some answers to some questions to find out there's, you know, being curious about an opportunity. And then, yeah, an opportunity will lead to a client meeting, which leads to obviously a job on if if that happens to be the case. So we qualify a lot of the information that we're gathering to make sure that it's um going to end up to a job on. Yeah. But a job on isn't a job on unless it's fully qualified. Yeah. Um, and we're looking, you know, we've got a commitment from the client and us in terms of the approach, you know, um the strategy to the hire, what we're looking for. Like there's just, you know, so much that goes into it to make sure that the job is on. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:It could be as simple as I guess the recruiting term, happy to have a turn, happy to have a conversation with you've got a job. You haven't been given it. It's not exclusive, it's just it's a leader there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, gotcha. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:A lead is essentially a you know, a bit of information that leads to an opportunity that leads to, you know, more and more.
SPEAKER_05:You did mention earlier about you know, not as many people pick up the phone nowadays. And so that might adjust how you do some of your BD. And we talked about you being a lot more present on LinkedIn right now. Is there is there a change in your approach nowadays to maybe what it was when you first got into the industry?
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Don't we know it? Like I I um I stopped talking about those days where it was 150 calls, you know, 15 client meetings. Um we used to have to Why doesn't that work anymore? Does it well, there's no desk phone. Number one. Um, that was all we were used to. You know, when the desk phone rang right next to our screen, you pick it up. Like you, you know, that ring would force you to pick it up. Um now, you know, everyone's phone's on silent, or you know, it's in their pocket, or you know, they're just not connecting like that these days. Again, which is why networking events, industry forums, being seen is just so important because people get to know you. Um, yeah, so it it's definitely changed. It's um, but it's more now about that back then it was about volume. Now it's about quality. Um, so yes, our you know, our quotas for calls per week have dropped um to what I used to know it, but certainly to a standard that's um reflective of yes, people picking up the phone, having meaningful conversations. But yeah, now with the power of LinkedIn to be able to connect and and then people may just want to type at night a response um to you rather than pick up the phone during the day. So you will, you know, if you're um if you're using LinkedIn as a way to connect, present sort of who you are, see if there's an opportunity to chat, you know, there's a little, there's a little bit that I can add. Um, what can you bring to the conversation? And then great, you know, you're either on the phone or you're in that meeting and getting into, you know, quality conversations. So you've always got to have a few different avenues to make sure that you've got leads that are being generated. And, you know, one thing I've known the last sort of few years is this can happen while you sleep. You know, so we're using the database to reconnect with or to connect or reconnect with clients ongoing. We're not bombarding them, but we're making sure that there's tools happening in the background to keep touch points up because we know that we can only do so much on the phone these days.
SPEAKER_05:It's an interesting point. I think my phone's been on silent for about 15 years. And if there's a number on it, I'm like, nah, who who would be calling me for that? But you talk about um generating activity when you're asleep. So what kind of tools do you use? Or have you got any software that's pretty good that you you guys have?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, we use we use bullhorn, um, and it's yeah, it's it's for the automation part in that. Um, we spent a fair bit of money to get that all up and away. I'm no guru when it comes to systems or admin. Like outsource that and make sure that someone um can implement and then we just follow. Um so that's been great for, as I said, um touch points the database can, you know, um emails the database can send out to qualified clients in their um reminders for when you know a client hasn't been spoken to for X amount of time or we've had a job on with them and it's been, you know, a period of time that we haven't been able, you know, have we haven't seen the next come through. So we've all we've got prompts and reminders coming into our inbox daily to um to reconnect or to add value or to you know provide an insight. Um and then there's little bits and pieces happening behind that that keeps the marketing um circulating with with our clients. Um it's very it's not it, and again, it's not too much if we get any feedback from someone to say, you know, I'm um nothing right now, or you know, it's um I haven't got time for this, then of course we'll address the situation, but it very, very rarely happens.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah. And um you kind of talked a bit about video video content and I've seen a bit more of yours recently. Is that something you're very deliberate about, or is it kind of okay, I'm uh often meeting clients, so maybe take the opportunity, or do you think, hey, I need to get a couple of pieces of content out this week because I know how effective it can be?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I I just felt that I um I suppose weave when we talk because all the um the consultants within Prime, I you know, I I want to make sure that they're um you know, they're being, as I said, building the reputation industry, sort of being seen, adding value. And um, of course, we all knew that, you know, video was um steadily increasing and um you know you don't want to be falling behind the A game there. Um so as a push, and you know, it still feels really uncomfortable, but um it's you know, it's working because again, we're able to um, you know, leads will come in where someone will say, Oh, you know, I saw you, I saw you online here, or I saw this podcast that you did, or I saw this interview that you did. And, you know, it it's real. Um it's not just saying how we do it and what we do, we're we're putting our face and our voice out there to say this is why we do it. And you know, our passion obviously comes through when we talk about why we do it and how much we love doing what we do. Yeah and videos capturing that.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Discovery calls, yeah. Which is kind of like taking job briefs.
SPEAKER_05:Well, I guess how I look at it is the job brief is there's a job there, right? Yeah. Discovery call or discovery meeting or an initial meeting, which is okay, I'm gonna meet a client, but there's no real agenda yet. I'm not there to pick up a job, but I need to do some fact finding, I need to learn about the business, their needs, what's worked in the past. So it's kind of that client meeting initial phase. Does that kind of make sense? And I'm curious from your perspective. I mean, everyone thinks of it differently, I'm sure. Um but what do you see works in in yours? You know, if it's a brand new person you've never met and you meet them for the first time, whether it's you or whether it's one of your consultants, what are some of the things you've seen great consultants do? Some things they've missed. Just what what's what's Kylie's view on what a good one looks like or a bad one looks like?
SPEAKER_00:This is um meeting with the client to pick up a job brief.
SPEAKER_05:No, not the job brief. So you're meeting with them, you're meeting with them or talking to them for the first time. Yeah. You don't know if there's a job there yet. Okay, sure. But you're just fact-finding, you're working it out. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:We we do set an agenda. So before we see the client, the information we're taking from the phone call to to book the meeting, we always send an agenda um the day before the meeting, obviously to confirm the time. But here's point one, two, three, and four that we'd love to cover off in 30 minutes with you. We know time's precious, but you know, let's set an agenda and and um and stick to it. Um, yeah, very rarely happens. But at least it gives um the prospect confidence that you know, we're going into talk shop. Um, we want to understand your problems, and then you know, we can we can talk about it.
SPEAKER_05:Brings a level of professionalism to the to the meeting, I guess. Yeah, I don't hear anyone saying I set an agenda. Um I I did it in my old job. I didn't do it in recruitment, to be honest. I'll be like, let's meet for a coffee. And I'll work my way through it.
SPEAKER_00:So Yeah. You know, everyone's time's um everyone's time's precious. And, you know, I suppose in the property industry too, in my experience, you can you can talk about it all day. But if we're really wanting to add value to the meeting and make sure it's best use of time, well then we want to understand sort of, you know, where you've been, where you're going, your challenges with regards to people, um, and you know, obviously how we can provide value in response to that. So the agenda has really helped, um, as I said, especially with with time poor um people in the industry um going into the meeting, you know, it's 80% listening, 20% um, you know, talking once you've been able to pinpoint some some problem or challenge over there and and you know, being able to um provide some solutions or some considerations for you know how we can add value.
SPEAKER_05:I was gonna say, do you try do you try and bring insights to that meeting, that that initial meeting, things that's happening in the industry? Oh of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that's again the the fourth point on our agenda. You know, um, yeah, what what can we provide? Um, really like research. Research?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, before the meeting, right? Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. What are you researching specifically? So if you're going to go meet with a build like a builder, is it like what what would you be researching specifically before your meeting with a builder that may or may not have a need?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Web, I mean their website um we're going through to see um their key people, um, their message, um, whether it's you know their values are mentioned, their past projects, future projects, um, just so we can wrap our head around where it all stands today. Um LinkedIn, so we're looking at their business on LinkedIn, obviously their retention is specified, um, their gender balance, you know, it's a big thing in property and construction at the moment. Um, gender um diversity, inclusion, big topic. And that all comes back to um, you know, human resources of an overall umbrella. And obviously, we know we can we can talk to that through what we're doing with other clients and what we're seeing in the industry. Um, we're looking at the candidates, all the their employees and their backgrounds and their profiles so that we can get an understanding of where they've come from, um, you know, another competing businesses. Um, so yeah, we're we're very much doing our research through those ages.
SPEAKER_05:How much time do you spend on that? I used to get really irritated when consultants would just wing a meeting and not do any research and I'd have to take control because I hadn't really done anything. Um, how much time do you think someone, and I'm thinking about the new recruiters out there or a year into their recruitment career, how much time should they be spending prepping for that meeting?
SPEAKER_00:Time, oh look, I'd suggest a good a good hour, maybe. Um, you know, there's yeah, again, jumping, you know, what whatever information you can find from the website or LinkedIn, you find you go down a rabbit hole if you're really curious about it. So yeah, I'd look, you know, half an hour to an hour. Um, talking to other consultants in the business, um, you know, what do they know about that builder? You know, maybe with Jasmine working in development, some of her developers may have engaged that builder before. What's been their experience? So sharing as much intel um and doing as much research as you possibly can. Like we generally go out um together, so in pairs um sometimes to meetings, having that car chat on the way or that tram chat on the way just to, you know, share.
SPEAKER_05:Tram chat. That's very Melbourne.
SPEAKER_02:Tram chat. Tram chat. I just made another one.
SPEAKER_04:So what what's like the one question, or is there like one question that you find that you ask that generally just opens up a deeper level of conversation with clients?
SPEAKER_00:One that I've been asking lately is what does this performer, what does this candidate, what is the success or the outcomes that they will be showing you at six months or at 12 months? And that way you can reverse the brief. I mean, the brief can be very much about the job description, the position description, and you know, the key tasks. But what you really want to know is what the client is seeking or the employer is seeking in terms of outcomes. So that way you can tailor, once you get the outcome of what this successful candidate will look like, how they're performing, you know, what they're achieving at six or twelve months, um, you can really get what the client is ideally seeking from a successful candidate.
SPEAKER_05:I like that. That's really placing that candidate in a future state with that client, potentially. Yeah, it's a good mindset thing.
SPEAKER_00:So that way it's all about outcomes. It's not about what I need them to do today and duties and responsibilities and expectations and experience. It's what is that performance, you know, because everyone wants top talent, everyone wants a high performer, but what does that actually look like to you, Mr. Client, Mr. or Mrs. Client? You know, what does that look like and how can we work back from that?
SPEAKER_04:When did you start um being more outcome focused when taking a job brief rather than taking a job brief based on skills and experience?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, when do I become less transactional, I suppose?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, you've got to look at it as like a journey, whether it's, you know, um a journey with a relationship, a journey with the business, a journey on this recruitment exercise, like, you know, we're always seeking to solve problems and and that's getting outcomes. Um so it's really getting out of there, you know, you can sit there and ask 20 questions about, you know, the job itself, but you know, you're the talent in the industry is as I said, it's all about it's high performance, it's outcomes driven. So you you you need to focus on that as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and you know, asking asking basic questions that you can you can read will, you know, will not hold you in good stead in a a a 30 minute meeting where you're really wanting to set strategy and you're wanting to set you know the tone for the the value in the relationship and the value in the exercise.
SPEAKER_05:So that that's the sorry to interrupt, that's like the the money there. You talked about that in. You just got discovery calls, which is what are the challenges you're facing. Businesses exist to solve problems and challenges. And recruitment exists for the same thing. So to solve that, what outcome do you want from that? It's all interconnected. So I feel that has to be the shift to being more of a true consultant versus an order taker. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So how how do you, when you're taking this job brief, you're talking about the outcomes that the candidate is responsible for achieving at six months and at 12 months. What about like pain points of the client, whether that be through their hiring processes, who they've hired in the past, this type of thing? How deep do you go on the current pain that they're going through through that kind of hiring journey?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You know, deep enough, um, and there's, you know, obviously a lot of, well, if you can, if if you're building rapport with the client or with the um, you know, the employer, the decision maker, to dive deep into that, you will get most of the time that it's time poor. Um, you know, there's pressure of a project about to begin. Um, so again, to recruit this person, it's a condensed period of time. The other problem or challenge for them might be that they just again, they don't have don't have the reach in terms of their network to be able to, you know, find this person. Um, the cost um as well. So what's the cost of the person not being in this role? Um there's there's generally, you know, they're the probably the four main um problems or you know, issues that we're uncovering for a client in this industry.
SPEAKER_04:Do you find clients respond and engage better based on their pain or the outcomes that they're looking to achieve?
SPEAKER_00:Pain first and foremost. Um, I suppose we're we're understanding we're providing obviously a solution through insights and experience and and the way that we go about um finding and finding talent to get the outcome. So trying to answer your question there. It's yeah, it's their pain that we're uncovering, their problems that we're trying to understand, and then you know, they're coming to us for the outcomes, and that's where the value sits in providing that outcome. You know, there's no there's there's magic, there's method in the madness, of course. And then we'll go into how we go about it, how we do it, why we do it, what we do.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I guess that's a journey. It's uncovering the pain to the point where they're engaged enough to then start focusing on what the other pain is. Yeah, yeah, is it gonna be the outcome to remove that pain? Yes. Um, so that's good. And so what about like vague or unsure clients? Like one of the challenges that sometimes I faced was getting a job brief from a hiring manager that doesn't actually really know why they're hiring, what they're hiring for. They're a bit vague. Is there any strategies that you've got that helps uh remove this kind of vague, general job brief chat to something a little bit more tangible and specific?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I suppose it's um that type of um, you know, scenario can just be the beginning of the relationship. Um, you know, we're not all expecting to sort of go in there to solve problems and and um and you know, get quick wins. So again, that's just understanding um, you know, the growth plans of the business, um the type of business they're looking to build, what it what it's based around, values or um, you know, fast growth, um delivering projects, you know, whatever it might be. I suppose that that type of vague line is more about sort of sitting down, understanding where they are today and where they want to, you know, be in the um in the new future. You know, if it's not if there's not a role there right now, we could be sitting back and discussing, well, okay, if this project, if you win this project next month, you know, what does the structure look like? Is it a project coordinator, a site manager, a PM, and a project director? So we're sort of sitting down with them saying, well, you know, our client over here that we've recently recruited for on a similar build structured their project this way. So it just, we're leaving them with information to be able to consider if they are feeling a bit vague and it's hopefully adding value for them to get to a decision point or understand, you know, what the competition down the road is doing and how they're doing it. Um, or otherwise, you know, get them to a point where, you know, it's about timing, you know, it might not be tomorrow, as I said, it could be, you know, in a couple of months' time, they're calling back to say, all right, we're ready now. Green light, let's go. But at least we've been able to provide some value to get them to make a decision when they're ready. And again, you know, if they are quite vague, well, then it's sort of reversing, okay. Well, when you are a decision to um make, you know, to to finding, you know, candidate A, this is the process that it will look like. So, you know, we'll sit down and go through um the position, um, all the key requirements, um, and then what we do is, you know, obviously take that to market and you know, our sourcing strategies and our recruitment map timeline and and give them some insights to how long it's going to take thereafter. Because they're so sometimes unaware of the the time and obviously, you know, the the process that it takes to find the hire. So again, um, in getting them to make that decision, it's probably looking into eight weeks beyond that, knowing they've got someone in the role. And then that makes them, you know, sit back and go, geez, I need to make this decision a little bit quicker. Let's get our skates on. Let's work together on getting it evolved.
SPEAKER_04:What about like objection handling? Like, what are the main objections that you're facing and how do you overcome them?
SPEAKER_00:The main objection would be we already work with a recruiter. We've, you know, we already have a relationship with another recruiter. Um that would, you know, that's that's the most common. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:They're pretty loyal in your space. Yeah, they are. Okay. Um I thought property and construction they wouldn't be. They'd just be like, whatever, mate. Are they like just Well, I think we don't know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I guess so.
SPEAKER_05:Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, there's um, you know, there's there's I I mean, I've got 16 years experience, and there's others that have 20, 25 that have been doing construction recruitment. You know, they're really close with their clients. You know, they're just, you know, and and same with me. I'm a phone call away from saying I need someone. Okay, great, we're off.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You know, it's it and then it that takes time and experience and and relationship building, of course. So yeah, there is a lot of conversations I'll have with new clients, cold clients, that um, you know, as are telling me that they've already used, they use someone. Um, and you know, it's either been successful or it's not.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um, so at that point in time, you're either getting the call back to say, well, you know, this hasn't worked out for X, Y, Z reasons. Um, you know, we're we're willing to give you a shot now. Um so yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So it's predominantly competition used to be in your space. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you know, it's just acknowledging that, you know, it's great to hear you've had such a long-standing relationship with with um, you know, recruiter in the industry. Um, I'd be grateful if my clients were to say that with any other recruiter calling you. Um you know, and then it's, you know, well, you know, we're obviously having this conversation right now, but is there anything, you know, that you'd like anything that would could be done differently? Um, have you faced any hurdles? Is there, you know, anything they've haven't been able to deliver a service upon? Or, you know, again, just being curious to find out if there has been any um yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Well, doesn't all ask that. Like, is there anything that you like hearing? And I I like how you answer that actually. And I used to answer a similar way, which was, you know, what do you give them at 10? As an example, eight, what would it take to get them to a ten? And would you give me 20 minutes to show you how I could do something? Something, whatever it was, but is there any objections you like hearing? Um, because you feel you've got a good response or a good way of answering it, or would it be just the one you just said then?
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, I think I like that one because I'm I suppose I suppose it resonates with me because it does show value that that particular client values a relationship. Um, you know, that's you know, and that's that's obviously important to me, to us. And um Yeah, I'd say that'd be the one that I I like, yeah, yeah, even though it's an objection. Um, you know, but every objection is an opportunity, you know, it's it's not it's not a no. And if you're resilient enough to sort of say, okay, well, I'm hearing you. Um, I'd love to to see what you know, what the journey might look like, you know, you're not gonna hear from, you know, whenever you want to hear from me next, um, you know, I'm not sort of walking away from from a no. It's okay, well, you know, how do we start?
SPEAKER_05:So not right now.
SPEAKER_00:This relationship. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I was trained to try and overcome it there and then, but there's a level of respect to that objection as well that you don't want to push it too hard. Yeah. But have you got any advice that you kind of give to people listening who, you know, how to handle objections? Anything that works particularly well in your space?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, probably that one, you know, it's uh a no's not a no. It's just a an opportunity to um, you know, follow up at a a different point in time or you know, ask a ask a curious question that might lead to them thinking differently, or you know, you adding some sort of, you know, a different, a differentiating point. Um, adding some value or, you know, an insight that might just get them thinking that, yeah, you you know, you know, um, you know what you're seeing. I you know, get them to trust that you're the expert in your market. Yeah. But it does, it's a journey. It can take, you know, two, three, four, five touch points and conversations to get there, but definitely see it as an opportunity to um follow that that lead or otherwise move on to the next. And you know, there'll be a ring just around the corner. You know, keep going.
SPEAKER_04:Can we talk about fee negotiation for a second? I'd love to learn your specific uh experience here from when you first started your agency, what fees you were charging, to what fees you're charging now. And if they've changed, and if they have, how did you get the fees up from six and a half years ago to today?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure. The I suppose, you know, my um when I'm providing a recruitment service, obviously my fee is based on experience and network and um, you know, the the process in terms of getting an outcome. Um but I've had to obviously think broader with the business and where other consultants are able to um present a fee, whether it's negotiable or it's set. So um what we've we've changed recently over the past 12 months is having options for clients. So, you know, I was always, and and the business was always set, you know, our our 16% fee was our average, but you have flexibility to sort of, you know, look at the longer-term um prospects with a client, whether it might be volume or it's that first off exercise you want to prove that you can deliver. So there's always been flexibility, but you know, standard 16%. Um, to where we are now in the market where we want to create um options and choice for clients rather than getting the objection um or having to negotiate. So rather, here's three choices that you have. The first choice being a um a contingent fee, which is generally higher, um, than the other two options, which option two would be a discounted fee, but with a sign-on. Um so we're we basically charge a um a sign-on there, which would be a commencement fee, and then the balance upon placement, or then the third approach is a retaint. So the third, a third, a third, again at the discounted rate. I like that.
SPEAKER_05:I'm hearing that more and more, to be honest, because human nature is to choose in threes. Um so to give people choice. Otherwise, if it's just one fee, the the choice is yes or no. And now it's natural choice. Yeah. So it makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And it's, you know, it can depend on um obviously retained is pro is more, you you generally anticipate for more senior roles. Whereas at least a client can see that, and you know, there's there's future there for um for other more senior positions. But you know, if it's option A or B, then at least they know the benefits of both. Um so the discounted rate is, you know, we're going to, we're we're going to get an outcome. Um, your commitment is there, our commitment is there right through to the end. Option A, um, without it being, you know, a sign-on or exclusivity means, you know, you you walk them through um the pros and cons essentially. Yeah. So whether you know you're competing against another recruiter, it's it's a race. Because you're adjusting your service, right?
SPEAKER_05:So you're not just okay, I'll do it cheaper. Because I'm adjusting my service, which service do you want really? That's what it is.
SPEAKER_04:Have you got any examples where you've had you've got an OG client, they're on like the rock bottom rate from six years ago, and it's a bit of a punish, and you've got to try and get their rates up. You're asking for a friend.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Have you ever had to do that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. One thing I commit to is is um an account management approach with a client that's, you know, an OG. So we will review service and terms yearly. Um, so it's not a hard conversation to have when we have to go through a review process, um, you know, steal their time, take them out for lunch, um, and go through, you know, how how we've been performing, um, you know, any feedback that they they need to hear or um or any changes. Um so at that point in time we're we're um we're revising terms and really looking at, you know, it's a strategic um sort of conversation at that point in time to look at the ROI for both of us, for both businesses. Um and as I said, implementing these three choices, these three options, has been a way that we've been able to d drive that process and not sort of just sit back and, you know, keep it um keep the terms as they were six years ago.
SPEAKER_04:How do you overcome the fear of you'll lose them if you change your goalposts on them?
SPEAKER_00:Look, if I'm if I'm getting feedback through that sort of you know, account management conversation that our service is differing or not to expectations, or you know, there's constructive feedback there. Well then I need to consider that most definitely. Um but if it's all positive feedback and we're getting outcomes and we're we're thriving, then you know it's not a hard, um, a hard conversation to have. Well, you know, this is where we're at in 2025 or this is where we're going in 2026. And it's not bumping up the the fees, it's just requiring um or seeking more commitment to make sure that we're we're getting outcomes. And as I said, that's whether it's a sign-on or a discounted rate for exclusivity, there's a win-win. You know, we we we all want we all want that.
SPEAKER_04:Lastly, on like fee negotiation, closing the deal, so to speak. Is there any like one-liners or strategies that you take when you've been engaging with a client, everything's everything seems like it's going in the right direction, and then for some reason they just ghost you and you're thinking, what the hell's going on? I've sent in the terms, I said it's all good, but now I can't get a hold of them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Do you have any strategies on how to like bring it back?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Bring back the dead.
SPEAKER_00:I suppose you just gotta ask that one question. Like, what is stopping you from moving forward? Um is there, you know, what are the what are the what might be the the challenge or the the the problem you're facing to make a decision? Like what's stopping you from making decisions? What more can I provide to get you to the decision? Um you know, you've also got to be patient too, like you know, every every business, every owner, every individual is busy. So I think um you can't be pesty or you know, too.
SPEAKER_05:So you don't triple pump them on the phone trying to triple pumping. You gotta let that pump. Triple pumping works, man. Does it? Yeah, yeah. When you call me three times, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um but yeah, that that one question, you know, what's stopping you from making a decision or what's slowing you down, or what um, yeah, what more information?
SPEAKER_04:I just want to challenge you. I want to challenge you on this. Yeah. So you've said that and they haven't responded.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so you've tried email, you've tried phone, you've sent a LinkedIn message.
SPEAKER_04:You basically show up. I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to like put you in a corner here, but you this is basically an earn or burn situation. How do you just earn their business and get them over the line or just go, you're you're a time waster? See ya.
SPEAKER_00:Well, look, yeah, it's got to come to a a point in time where you know we're not meant for each other. Um they do those breakup emails, don't they?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, those breakup emails, and they do, and they do get a response. Have you seen them?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I've seen them, I've used them as well.
SPEAKER_05:There's some examples, and I can't remember what the subject is, but it's like one particular thing. You know, basho emails. Have you heard of basho emails? It's a it's a style of emailing to prospect and it gives you the framework. And I used it at LinkedIn, I used it at Gartner, but they do breakup emails and it's a way of framing it, and they always respond. Swish do this as well.
SPEAKER_04:It's called a line in the sand. Yeah. And essentially the approach is if you uh if you've got a prospect and they've gone cold and you don't know how to revive them, they're not getting back to you, you just send them a line in the sand message, whether it's text or email. And essentially it's just, hey, Ed, I need to draw a line in the sand. I've feel like I've been chasing you and I get nothing back. Yeah. Um, if I don't hear back from you in the next 48 hours, then I'm going to just put this in um the lost enclosed basket. Yeah. Would have appreciated at least the courtesy to let me know that you weren't moving ahead. Um if I have confused myself or if I'm misreading the situation, please do me the courtesy in 48 hours to get back to me because that's my line in the sand.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_04:And that is, everyone gets back to Kylie. Yeah, those are.
SPEAKER_05:No need for triple pumping. But you they respond.
SPEAKER_04:But usually, like most of the time, they'll come back and they'll just be really apologetic because you know when you're ghosting someone, and then they give you the line in the sand message, and you're like, oh, I am being a bit shit. I should probably get back to them. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they've got to sit with that too. Um, and as I said, if it's not meant to be, you know, so be it. Maybe we'll reconnect in three months' time, or yeah, you know, when the timing's right for them, maybe they do call. But yeah, yeah, I suppose if you're showing your um your eagerness and your persistence and you know you're confident in doing that, um, that's all you can really sort of rest on.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I totally agree. Now, before we move on to Are You Smarter Than Age?
SPEAKER_05:Can I can we call it Are You Smarter Than Blake today? I'm curious. You're the player just to pivot a little bit.
SPEAKER_04:Mate, I'm happy to.
SPEAKER_05:I'm losing too hard at the moment. Like just to uh yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, well, before we move on to Are You Smarter Than Blake, yeah, uh, what is one key takeaway that a recruiter should have from listening to this podcast?
SPEAKER_00:Consistency will always win. And I say that in terms of like business development is you know, it's about building trust, um, in my opinion. Um and when when you're able to yeah, when you're able to be consistent, um, persistent, and provide good value, that trust is building underneath. And that will always um cement the relationship with the client. You you do want a long-term relationship if you're in this game for the long, you know, the long journey. Um, and it will always come back to, I suppose, your reputation and and you know that that day that the client calls you and says, I need your help.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, doing what you say you're gonna do. Yeah, yeah, like that.
SPEAKER_00:Be consistent.
SPEAKER_05:Love that.
SPEAKER_04:All right, are you smarter than Blake?
SPEAKER_05:Are you ready? This is better because I feel like I've just been uh getting slammed recently. All right. Do you know the rules? Shall I just read the rules out yet? Yeah, yeah. Rules are your name is the buzzer. So you just say, Kylie. Um, I'll read the question and there's four multiple choice answers. I'll read all the answers, but if you know the answer or you think you know the answer before, just say your name and I'll just stop reading and you can answer it. If you get it wrong, I'll continue reading and Blake, or you can answer. Does that kind of make sense? Yes, that's great. And the loser has a shot of whiskey. When did Randstad launch? A 1920, B 1985, C, 1960, or D 1980.
SPEAKER_04:Like, can you repeat the answer? No.
SPEAKER_00:Ah, there's a few there.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, no, you don't have a second chance.
SPEAKER_00:D.
SPEAKER_04:Thank God. I did repeat it for Kylie. Alright, well, I'm glad that we both got it wrong.
SPEAKER_05:What's the average cost per hire globally? A, 10 to 15k. B, 4 to 6k, C, 20 to 30k, or D, 8K? Like 8K. What?
SPEAKER_02:B.
SPEAKER_05:Average cost. Correct! What is it? 4 to 6k.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, good.
SPEAKER_05:I don't remember there's like some you know currencies or some countries doing things very cheap. So 10 Kylie. Yes. Okay. Which industry has the highest turnover rate? A. Hospitality. B tech. C, manufacturing.
SPEAKER_00:A.
SPEAKER_05:Correct. Two no Kylie. You gotta get this one, mate, otherwise you're out. Okay, yeah. Okay. What does ATS stand for?
SPEAKER_04:Applicant tracking system. Correct. Okay.
SPEAKER_05:So 2-1. Let's go. What was Corn Ferry's specialty when founded? A. Temporary staffing. B. Exec search. C, recruitment software, or D, training? Kylie.
SPEAKER_02:B.
SPEAKER_05:Correct. Kylie wins. Well done, Carly.
SPEAKER_04:Good job. Alright, Carly, the winner gets the shot of whiskey. I'm just not much of a drinker. Let's get it in. Do I just do it right now, anyway? Come on, I had to do it. I hate whiskey and I did it last time.
SPEAKER_05:I need silence. I need a focus.
SPEAKER_00:We won't look. Oh, well done.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, he's back. He's on I'm a drinker again. I'm a drinker again. Huge thanks to Carly for joining us. Beating Blake in the Who's Smarter Than Blake? If listeners, clients, candidates want to get hold of you, what's the best way to do it?
SPEAKER_00:I'd suggest LinkedIn. All the contact details and everything's there. So yeah, connect with me on LinkedIn. That's easier.
SPEAKER_05:That was awesome. Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, thank you guys so much. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_05:Pleasure.